I could be wrong but I thought the bible said he abandoned them because she was suddenly pregnant and Jewish law was harsh on those who cheat on their spouse so out of mercy he quietly left them.
this is the most info we get about this episode from scripture, thus a lot is left to the imagination. what you say is true, but it assumes he is not going to claim the child as his own doesnt it?
right. then the question is: did Mary tell him? So if she did tell him what happened, he needed to take the child as his own. If not, then hes more easily excused for thinking she cheated. but this is the Vlessed Virgin! My point is that she wouldnt get stoned if he claims it as he should and did. For some reason he didn´t do so. It seems likely this some reason sin, either not believing Mary or a false humility and refusal to accept the honor. am I missing something?
No those all make sense. It would be odd for it to be a sin for him not believing her when she said she was conceived by God in my opinion but who knows.
I don't think this is accurate description of St. Joseph. He was chosen to be the spouse of the Blessed Mother, you should give this more thought, because God doesn't choose like men. For fear of offending God, I had to write this comment, please think about St. Joseph mentioned in the Bible as a just man. He was also a king, as he was from the line of David, so he didn't behave like men behave today, that includes his thoughts. He too had an angel reveal the Incarnation to him, so like many saints believe, it's possible that he was justified in the womb like St. John the Baptist. He had to be sinless, because he was to be called father by the Son of God.
Everything about the Blessed Mother and St. Joseph has to be seen in relation to Christ, otherwise, we can make an inaccurate picture of these saints. St. Joseph is called the Terror of demons, because he was never under their slavery, he had nothing to be sorry for, (like St. John the Baptist,) because God willed for him to hold the high office of father to God, the Son.
ok thanks for sharing! i am not saying st joseph was a bad guy, I was saying he sinned and this makes his magnanimity all the more admirable that he took on this all important role in salvation history: The dogmatic question is open to interpretation as a catholic, and not one single saint says what you say here, so I dont think I am offending God by writing this. Its great you have such a devotion to and love of St Joseph. I wrote this to honor him, not to speak ill of him. Sorry if I gave that impression.
Hi Stephen, firstly, thanks for your kind reply. It's unusual these days to get a kind reply on the internet, when we hold different views.
I have not written anything new, St. Joseph holds a very high office and we know that he is called the terror of demons. Yes, I love st. Joseph very much, and while I did not research before writing to you, I have now looked up what the saints have to say about the special privilege of st. Joseph.
Please do skim through the following links to read what the Catholic Church teaches.
thanks for this response. again, these quotes are mute as you seem to imply that by saying I think st joseph sinned I dont hold him in high regard, the whole gist of my article is that its quite the opposite. this is only a sign you are not trying to understand me charitably, which gives me less reason to take your opinion seriously. that st alphonsus claimed st joseph was sanctified in the womb is news to me and does correct what I said in my previous response so for that I am truly thankful. but there is no defined dogma on this matter, so for this text to have the character of a correction as if I am not following the teaching of the church is off. taylor marshall is not magesterium.
Thanks for the reply. I left out the Mother of God from my comment intentionally.
So, to follow up on St. Joseph - does the Church begin for you at the Incarnation? If not, then neither Scripture nor logic seem to support the notion. If the Church does begin at the start of the New Testament, then what of the great ascetics and penitents among the Prophets? Are they considered to be prior to the Church? Its an interesting idea.
I appreciate your expression on the importance of the lowliness of saints. For me, St. Mary of Egypt has always been that standard bearer. It is so important, as you showed, to have holy examples whose sins are comensurate with the ascetic fruits of their repentance. It gives us great personal hope and particular examples that might be closer to us than others. I cant fathom the poverty of the Protestant tradition that has almost universally abandoned this boundless spring of support.
Ok so you have me here. I think theologically speaking the church starts in earnest at pentacost, so what I say is inappropriate. This also fits with Jesus´ quote that the least in heaven will be greater than St John the Baptist. Despite this, I have always thought of the visitation as the first proto-church gathering, With Jesus, John, Mary, Joseph, Zachary, Elizabeth. In this secondary sense, then, Joseph can be considered the first to reject the Gospel, and I think what I said was correct in that sense.
Wow St Mary of Egypt is amazing. ,Yes she gives hope, but also shows that climbing out of a hole is no simple matter. Though its consoling there are other stories of prostitutes who went into the desert and soon after their soul separated from their bodies, they died, on account of the contrition for sin. St Mary of Egypt, if I remember correctly, had to toil 17 years in the desert to be freed from sensuous desire alone, and still lived another 20 years on top of this.
Is the view of St. Joseph as the first penitent traditional or official in Catholic doctrine?
This article is a beautiful reflection! St. Joseph has never enjoyed the place of great prominence in the east that he has in the west. I dont know why that is.
You know, very often Orthodox clergy (in my experience, usually Greek ones) are almost obsessed with trying to put down anything Catholic and create a contrast with their own understanding. I have long considered these endeavors to be juvenile and not well thought out. If nothing else, Catholic doctrine is sprawlingly complex and logical, and arguments against it usually ignore this quality to the detriment of the accuser.
But there are some things in this article that might point to (indirectly) more profound differences in our understandings and doctrines, such as the possibiility of St. Joseph being sinless (I agree with your assumption on this point), and the ecclesiology wherein he could be the first penitent. It may be that after further investigation, there is nothing to write home about after all, and I dont mean to invite such a discussion here. This is too holy a time for us all (first week of Great Lent and Passiontide for you).
As usual, you post material that is rich food for thought for someone outside your tradition. Thank you!
update. a quick spout of research concludes that there is one catholic priest living today, fr donald calloway, that claims this about st Joseph, and a good friend of mine just so happens to be a great fan of this book and priest. which led to my thinking it is a more commonly held opinion than it is. I couldn´t find any saint or doctor of the church that claims this.
What tradition says about him being the first penitent, I am unsure. This is just my reflection on the matter, but scripture and logic seem to force this conclusion so I say it without much worry. Its also been a source of grace for me in approaching confession so that also builds my confidence in sharing without consulting sources.
Many claim St John the Baptist was freed from original sin by the word of Mary to Elizabeth. I forget how exactly St Joseph was freed from this according to this theological opinion, but as I have reflected on the matter, he seems more heroic if he was a sinner and took the mantle anyway.
I could be wrong but I thought the bible said he abandoned them because she was suddenly pregnant and Jewish law was harsh on those who cheat on their spouse so out of mercy he quietly left them.
this is the most info we get about this episode from scripture, thus a lot is left to the imagination. what you say is true, but it assumes he is not going to claim the child as his own doesnt it?
Well if she cheated on him, it wouldn't be his own child. It would be some other man's.
right. then the question is: did Mary tell him? So if she did tell him what happened, he needed to take the child as his own. If not, then hes more easily excused for thinking she cheated. but this is the Vlessed Virgin! My point is that she wouldnt get stoned if he claims it as he should and did. For some reason he didn´t do so. It seems likely this some reason sin, either not believing Mary or a false humility and refusal to accept the honor. am I missing something?
No those all make sense. It would be odd for it to be a sin for him not believing her when she said she was conceived by God in my opinion but who knows.
I don't think this is accurate description of St. Joseph. He was chosen to be the spouse of the Blessed Mother, you should give this more thought, because God doesn't choose like men. For fear of offending God, I had to write this comment, please think about St. Joseph mentioned in the Bible as a just man. He was also a king, as he was from the line of David, so he didn't behave like men behave today, that includes his thoughts. He too had an angel reveal the Incarnation to him, so like many saints believe, it's possible that he was justified in the womb like St. John the Baptist. He had to be sinless, because he was to be called father by the Son of God.
Everything about the Blessed Mother and St. Joseph has to be seen in relation to Christ, otherwise, we can make an inaccurate picture of these saints. St. Joseph is called the Terror of demons, because he was never under their slavery, he had nothing to be sorry for, (like St. John the Baptist,) because God willed for him to hold the high office of father to God, the Son.
ok thanks for sharing! i am not saying st joseph was a bad guy, I was saying he sinned and this makes his magnanimity all the more admirable that he took on this all important role in salvation history: The dogmatic question is open to interpretation as a catholic, and not one single saint says what you say here, so I dont think I am offending God by writing this. Its great you have such a devotion to and love of St Joseph. I wrote this to honor him, not to speak ill of him. Sorry if I gave that impression.
Hi Stephen, firstly, thanks for your kind reply. It's unusual these days to get a kind reply on the internet, when we hold different views.
I have not written anything new, St. Joseph holds a very high office and we know that he is called the terror of demons. Yes, I love st. Joseph very much, and while I did not research before writing to you, I have now looked up what the saints have to say about the special privilege of st. Joseph.
Please do skim through the following links to read what the Catholic Church teaches.
Thanks and God bless,
Lydia
https://www.stjosephourguide.org/understanding-st-joseph/saint-quotes-about-st-joseph/
https://catholicmagazine.news/exempt-from-original-sin-why-not-considerations-on-the-predestination-of-st-joseph/
https://taylormarshall.com/2011/03/sinlessness-and-assumption-of-joseph.html#:~:text=Many%20great%20saints%2C%20doctors,and%20also%20his%20bodily%20assumption.&text=Francisco%20Suarez%2C%20Jean%20Gerson%2C%20and,mother's%20womb%20prior%20to%20birth.
thanks for this response. again, these quotes are mute as you seem to imply that by saying I think st joseph sinned I dont hold him in high regard, the whole gist of my article is that its quite the opposite. this is only a sign you are not trying to understand me charitably, which gives me less reason to take your opinion seriously. that st alphonsus claimed st joseph was sanctified in the womb is news to me and does correct what I said in my previous response so for that I am truly thankful. but there is no defined dogma on this matter, so for this text to have the character of a correction as if I am not following the teaching of the church is off. taylor marshall is not magesterium.
A beautiful prayer.
Thanks for the reply. I left out the Mother of God from my comment intentionally.
So, to follow up on St. Joseph - does the Church begin for you at the Incarnation? If not, then neither Scripture nor logic seem to support the notion. If the Church does begin at the start of the New Testament, then what of the great ascetics and penitents among the Prophets? Are they considered to be prior to the Church? Its an interesting idea.
I appreciate your expression on the importance of the lowliness of saints. For me, St. Mary of Egypt has always been that standard bearer. It is so important, as you showed, to have holy examples whose sins are comensurate with the ascetic fruits of their repentance. It gives us great personal hope and particular examples that might be closer to us than others. I cant fathom the poverty of the Protestant tradition that has almost universally abandoned this boundless spring of support.
Ok so you have me here. I think theologically speaking the church starts in earnest at pentacost, so what I say is inappropriate. This also fits with Jesus´ quote that the least in heaven will be greater than St John the Baptist. Despite this, I have always thought of the visitation as the first proto-church gathering, With Jesus, John, Mary, Joseph, Zachary, Elizabeth. In this secondary sense, then, Joseph can be considered the first to reject the Gospel, and I think what I said was correct in that sense.
Wow St Mary of Egypt is amazing. ,Yes she gives hope, but also shows that climbing out of a hole is no simple matter. Though its consoling there are other stories of prostitutes who went into the desert and soon after their soul separated from their bodies, they died, on account of the contrition for sin. St Mary of Egypt, if I remember correctly, had to toil 17 years in the desert to be freed from sensuous desire alone, and still lived another 20 years on top of this.
Is the view of St. Joseph as the first penitent traditional or official in Catholic doctrine?
This article is a beautiful reflection! St. Joseph has never enjoyed the place of great prominence in the east that he has in the west. I dont know why that is.
You know, very often Orthodox clergy (in my experience, usually Greek ones) are almost obsessed with trying to put down anything Catholic and create a contrast with their own understanding. I have long considered these endeavors to be juvenile and not well thought out. If nothing else, Catholic doctrine is sprawlingly complex and logical, and arguments against it usually ignore this quality to the detriment of the accuser.
But there are some things in this article that might point to (indirectly) more profound differences in our understandings and doctrines, such as the possibiility of St. Joseph being sinless (I agree with your assumption on this point), and the ecclesiology wherein he could be the first penitent. It may be that after further investigation, there is nothing to write home about after all, and I dont mean to invite such a discussion here. This is too holy a time for us all (first week of Great Lent and Passiontide for you).
As usual, you post material that is rich food for thought for someone outside your tradition. Thank you!
update. a quick spout of research concludes that there is one catholic priest living today, fr donald calloway, that claims this about st Joseph, and a good friend of mine just so happens to be a great fan of this book and priest. which led to my thinking it is a more commonly held opinion than it is. I couldn´t find any saint or doctor of the church that claims this.
What tradition says about him being the first penitent, I am unsure. This is just my reflection on the matter, but scripture and logic seem to force this conclusion so I say it without much worry. Its also been a source of grace for me in approaching confession so that also builds my confidence in sharing without consulting sources.
Many claim St John the Baptist was freed from original sin by the word of Mary to Elizabeth. I forget how exactly St Joseph was freed from this according to this theological opinion, but as I have reflected on the matter, he seems more heroic if he was a sinner and took the mantle anyway.
Thanks for the encouragement.