This post has inspired me to write something personal. I'm not sure what I'm going to say because it will just come out as I think about it, but it will probably have to do with isolation and what that does to your thinking. I've been writing and existing in total isolation without a community, content just to say what I want to say, but I'm not so sure that's good enough anymore.
thanks so much for sharing. ive had similar problems the past few years. and also being in communities where i have to self sensor for various reasons besides the good ones. few things beat a good conversation partner and these are hard, for me at least to find. Godspeed.
I found myself nodding in agreement in many places and often laughing at observations I have lived personally by never fully expressed. My problem is with self-editing. My non-clinical assumption of ADD leads me to a continual need to filter the great many thoughts that come into view through a decision process that sometimes can get so overrun that I literally need to stop mid stream. Not all extemporaneous constructions are useful (or appropriate), especially in the context of a sermon! But I have often felt the reality of the formation of better thinking through speaking. Hey - maybe that should be a slogan!
This is so far the most wonderful and excitingly relevant post I have read on substack. Thank you so much for sharing, actually I haven't finished reading the post yet but wanted to let you know... will comment more later...
Stephen, hello... much to say but this article touched on something true and magical which I have experienced, speaking to audiences long ago even in a foreign language which I didn't know well but the words came and even laughter and deep love shared which was clearly the power of Grace. In music too. I have had so much solitude but even one playful listener brings out the best music. I am not an academic but I love von Kleists essay, and yours, about thought and speaking and writing, reminds me of Norman Mailer who wrote about discovering reality at the tip of a pencil. I've had a lot of adventures i want to write about but hadn't clearly seen the immense value of Substack as catalyst and blessing until reading your article. I was shy but feel grateful and encouraged to grow in community. Thanks again.
pamela, thanks for this dear comment. since im basically always in foreign countries at this point, your remark about helping with foreign languages is so true. I hadnt thought of that application of this idea. i went to your page and it looks like substack is waiting for your first piece of writing! i am too! its really thrilling as readers start to trickle in.
pamela! thanks so much for taking the time to say this! it means a lot. i will be looking forward to hearing what exactly resonated with you. all best, stephen
Love this! Very much describes how my thoughts consolidate, although almost all in writing to an audience, rather than speaking.
There is such a thing as extemporaneous writing, but I rarely do it on Substack, except sometimes in comments like this. However, I do it in real-time chat on my "home" Discord, where I have a group of people I can, indeed, engage in the right state of mind. "Right state of mind" is absolutely correct. It's why I have to curate my substack so much: getting in a "negative" argumentative mood destroys my creativity and, to an extent, my ability to think. [Note: a "positive" argumentative mood can be quite productive.]
So everything you and Kleist say about speaking can apply to writing as well. And it does make a difference how you write: I find that sometimes I have to leave the computer and sit with pen and paper if I get a "writer's block." The computer is too distracting.
Also, I can't do any long form writing on my phone, so those tend only to be more short ideas or "notes" or short responses to comments. I'm on the computer now -- wouldn't have tried a comment like this on my phone.
Another interesting point: after I write something to post to substack, I normally read it outloud. So maybe the final phase of the "written conversation" for me is to speak it, and hear myself.
I am experimenting on my substack with posting various scenes from my WIP's (I write primarily fiction, not essays), knowing they may change. And those do change how I approach other scenes, although so far I have rarely re-written scenes already posted.
thanks for this thoughtful comment. sk also did a lot of reading aloud to perfect his writing. i recently read an interesting article from wendell berry whose wife types up all of his handwritten or typewritten articles and books. he refuses pcs.
This is indeed very illuminating. I noticed this phenomenon in my short career as an adjunct professor of philosophy. Teaching is a kind of speaking, and you understand your lecture better at the end than you did at the beginning. As you say, the people who respond in the class learn the most. But even the shy students sometimes learn this way, especially when a student has a good counterargument and the class feels as though they are collectively challenging the philosopher being taught. For this reason, I liked classes where the professor took it upon himself to defend the philosopher being taught against all comers, and I always tried to teach this way too. And as so often, Plato got here first, since he thought that dialogue is the fundamental form of philosophy.
I spent the last five minutes rethinking how to start this comment, until I noticed the irony. I'm compulsively reticent when I write, which is the main reason I've never made any consistent effort into public writing. This reflection is the first thing I've read all the way through on Substack, this comment is the first thing I've written. I think I'll reread your thoughts in the morning before I sit down to work on something to publish here myself.
On a more personal note: greetings, my old classmate.
Jacob! Grüßen! i thought it could be you from the name but of course its a very common name. thanks for taking the time to read! i am so pleased to reconnect. i will look forward to your comment and future writing! I hope you are well!
Finally, permission from Stephen to blather forth on topics I don't really understand! Jokes aside, this is a great writeup and it's neat to see smart people putting words to a phenomenon we all may have noticed on some level before. "Reverse panopticon" was such a good turn of phrase. As someone who talks to himself a lot I loved what you wrote about turning all one's interior conversation to God.
This is very practical advice. But, for a tiny two cents, as a reader... When I read peoples posts on substacks, in general, it is very soon obvious whose compositions have undergone the buttressing of reflective revision and whose are rather "off the cuff" as it were. It is rare that I enjoy the well crafted article more than the impulsive one. But the risk of having egg on the face is perhaps too severe to risk impuslivity too often.
Hmm, im skeptical. Revisions can be a danger as you say but it depends on the writer id say. The prayerbook post you read i wrote off the cuff, then thoroughly revised, after the revision it waa attracting way more readers, and on substack at least readers are a good thermometer for good writing. I waa trying here to comment on thought formation and not style per se. Maybe its just me but posting led to insights about how to better complete the thought. If you ever notice a retrograde revision with me id like to know. Or perhaps that was implied? Thanks for the comment.
Seriously impressive. Marvelous and helpful. Wow. Would you mind if I put a link to this in my reference section?
Thanks. By all means.
This post has inspired me to write something personal. I'm not sure what I'm going to say because it will just come out as I think about it, but it will probably have to do with isolation and what that does to your thinking. I've been writing and existing in total isolation without a community, content just to say what I want to say, but I'm not so sure that's good enough anymore.
thanks so much for sharing. ive had similar problems the past few years. and also being in communities where i have to self sensor for various reasons besides the good ones. few things beat a good conversation partner and these are hard, for me at least to find. Godspeed.
I found myself nodding in agreement in many places and often laughing at observations I have lived personally by never fully expressed. My problem is with self-editing. My non-clinical assumption of ADD leads me to a continual need to filter the great many thoughts that come into view through a decision process that sometimes can get so overrun that I literally need to stop mid stream. Not all extemporaneous constructions are useful (or appropriate), especially in the context of a sermon! But I have often felt the reality of the formation of better thinking through speaking. Hey - maybe that should be a slogan!
This is so far the most wonderful and excitingly relevant post I have read on substack. Thank you so much for sharing, actually I haven't finished reading the post yet but wanted to let you know... will comment more later...
Stephen, hello... much to say but this article touched on something true and magical which I have experienced, speaking to audiences long ago even in a foreign language which I didn't know well but the words came and even laughter and deep love shared which was clearly the power of Grace. In music too. I have had so much solitude but even one playful listener brings out the best music. I am not an academic but I love von Kleists essay, and yours, about thought and speaking and writing, reminds me of Norman Mailer who wrote about discovering reality at the tip of a pencil. I've had a lot of adventures i want to write about but hadn't clearly seen the immense value of Substack as catalyst and blessing until reading your article. I was shy but feel grateful and encouraged to grow in community. Thanks again.
pamela, thanks for this dear comment. since im basically always in foreign countries at this point, your remark about helping with foreign languages is so true. I hadnt thought of that application of this idea. i went to your page and it looks like substack is waiting for your first piece of writing! i am too! its really thrilling as readers start to trickle in.
pamela! thanks so much for taking the time to say this! it means a lot. i will be looking forward to hearing what exactly resonated with you. all best, stephen
Love this! Very much describes how my thoughts consolidate, although almost all in writing to an audience, rather than speaking.
There is such a thing as extemporaneous writing, but I rarely do it on Substack, except sometimes in comments like this. However, I do it in real-time chat on my "home" Discord, where I have a group of people I can, indeed, engage in the right state of mind. "Right state of mind" is absolutely correct. It's why I have to curate my substack so much: getting in a "negative" argumentative mood destroys my creativity and, to an extent, my ability to think. [Note: a "positive" argumentative mood can be quite productive.]
So everything you and Kleist say about speaking can apply to writing as well. And it does make a difference how you write: I find that sometimes I have to leave the computer and sit with pen and paper if I get a "writer's block." The computer is too distracting.
Also, I can't do any long form writing on my phone, so those tend only to be more short ideas or "notes" or short responses to comments. I'm on the computer now -- wouldn't have tried a comment like this on my phone.
Another interesting point: after I write something to post to substack, I normally read it outloud. So maybe the final phase of the "written conversation" for me is to speak it, and hear myself.
I am experimenting on my substack with posting various scenes from my WIP's (I write primarily fiction, not essays), knowing they may change. And those do change how I approach other scenes, although so far I have rarely re-written scenes already posted.
thanks for this thoughtful comment. sk also did a lot of reading aloud to perfect his writing. i recently read an interesting article from wendell berry whose wife types up all of his handwritten or typewritten articles and books. he refuses pcs.
This is indeed very illuminating. I noticed this phenomenon in my short career as an adjunct professor of philosophy. Teaching is a kind of speaking, and you understand your lecture better at the end than you did at the beginning. As you say, the people who respond in the class learn the most. But even the shy students sometimes learn this way, especially when a student has a good counterargument and the class feels as though they are collectively challenging the philosopher being taught. For this reason, I liked classes where the professor took it upon himself to defend the philosopher being taught against all comers, and I always tried to teach this way too. And as so often, Plato got here first, since he thought that dialogue is the fundamental form of philosophy.
I spent the last five minutes rethinking how to start this comment, until I noticed the irony. I'm compulsively reticent when I write, which is the main reason I've never made any consistent effort into public writing. This reflection is the first thing I've read all the way through on Substack, this comment is the first thing I've written. I think I'll reread your thoughts in the morning before I sit down to work on something to publish here myself.
On a more personal note: greetings, my old classmate.
Jacob! Grüßen! i thought it could be you from the name but of course its a very common name. thanks for taking the time to read! i am so pleased to reconnect. i will look forward to your comment and future writing! I hope you are well!
TLDR
You wouldn’t believe how wide was my grin when I jotted that.
Ha.
Finally, permission from Stephen to blather forth on topics I don't really understand! Jokes aside, this is a great writeup and it's neat to see smart people putting words to a phenomenon we all may have noticed on some level before. "Reverse panopticon" was such a good turn of phrase. As someone who talks to himself a lot I loved what you wrote about turning all one's interior conversation to God.
Hast du einen Link zur deutshschprachigen Artikel? Ich möchte beide lesen.
https://www.projekt-gutenberg.org/kleist/gedanken/gedanken.html
This is very practical advice. But, for a tiny two cents, as a reader... When I read peoples posts on substacks, in general, it is very soon obvious whose compositions have undergone the buttressing of reflective revision and whose are rather "off the cuff" as it were. It is rare that I enjoy the well crafted article more than the impulsive one. But the risk of having egg on the face is perhaps too severe to risk impuslivity too often.
Thank you for posting this.
Hmm, im skeptical. Revisions can be a danger as you say but it depends on the writer id say. The prayerbook post you read i wrote off the cuff, then thoroughly revised, after the revision it waa attracting way more readers, and on substack at least readers are a good thermometer for good writing. I waa trying here to comment on thought formation and not style per se. Maybe its just me but posting led to insights about how to better complete the thought. If you ever notice a retrograde revision with me id like to know. Or perhaps that was implied? Thanks for the comment.